Thought leadership that helps complex B2B deals move

Tihon (00:00)
Sensitive. All right. Hi Philip. It's very nice to have you here.

Philipp (00:09)
Nice to have me, Tian.

Tihon (00:14)
how do you usually introduce yourself?

Philipp (00:19)
like like like normally like when people tell me like who are you, what do you do, like a short recap. So basically, I'm Philip, half Polish, half German, grew up in Munich and I started studying there, studied psychology, then moved to Berlin and was first in consulting for SMEs to drive digital innovation, also build corporate startups. And then after I moved into the Berlin startup scene.

Philipp (00:43)
so was also like in the early sta an early stage operator and BISTEF commercial roles. And then I like roughly four years ago I joined as the first hire to the corporate startup of ABPE Mobility, where we developed software for managing electric fleets. And joined as first hire in two years we grew roughly to like more than 100 people. And I was responsible in the beginning for managing a huge AWS partnership with eight-figure budget.

Philipp (01:12)
And then also for product marketing and enterprise sales. So they're also closed the biggest fleet in the world, Amazon Logistics, and also the most progressive e-fleet in the mid-mile segment, ASCO in Norway. And among others. And during this time I also just realized how powerful content and proper product marketing and positioning is. So I dove into the rabbit hole, if you will, as for roughly four years ago.

Tihon (01:36)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (01:42)
And yeah, basically it last year started a company around this and now I'm basically helping companies in the new climate space, specifically new energy and also eMobility and B2B, to position themselves strategically after like certain inflection points, we can dive into those. And then once we have figured out the core messaging and the narratives along the bio journey, also drive these into the market with founder executive led content.

Philipp (02:12)
where also helped them partly with ghost or co writing to pull more to pull more lookalike deals and drive revenue and all these things.

Tihon (02:16)
Wow, cool.

Tihon (02:21)
Nice, nice. So energy plus immobility, this means you're operating pretty much in finite markets, right?

Philipp (02:32)
Yeah, most of the time that that's the that's the case. maybe like I started with e-mobility because I had background there and then moved into new energy and those markets are just like converging. That's like one thing. And I think like also with AI progress super important. but in general, affinite markets in the sense of there's just a limited amount of B2B customers that you can tackle. And in general the contracts are six, seven, sometimes even eight figures. and

Tihon (02:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tihon (02:59)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (02:59)
longer sales cycles. So this like a stage of finite markets, if you will.

Tihon (03:05)
That's right, that's right. Also, one characteristics I usually add when I describe finite markets is like everyone kind of usually knows everyone. They go into the same conferences, events, and so on and so forth. If somebody gets like another job place, they usually have connections with different companies. So that's why the predisposition is slightly different. And from here, I'm curious, like

Tihon (03:34)
what's your take on the content? Should it be different for finite markets to compare to let's say classic B2B SARS? And if yes, then how?

Philipp (03:47)
So in general, I would say like yes, like in the industry, like they are it's smaller, so people tend to know each other, especially if they're they're longer, but nobody knows everybody and like new players enter the market. when it comes to what does it mean for communication and content in that sense? in general, like specifically also for my case, when it comes to like does anything change for content?

Philipp (04:15)
Yes and no. So also like what I think you also like in in our previous discussion as like how to not burn trust in such a small market when basically everybody knows everybody. in general I'd say tell the truth, you know? So like fake it till you fake it till you make it might make sense. I'm not a big believer in it anymore.

Philipp (04:39)
but it but it because ultimately like it's overpromising, under delivering, and also like lying to some extent. so like this also should be reflected in the content. So don't, you know, like say something which is not true. but then also I think it's a little bit being sensitive about what to share of running customers because they know each other probably more so which is most of the time like also like a

Tihon (04:45)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Tihon (04:53)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (05:06)
you frame things and how much detail you ultimately also share and at what time you share it. And obviously never point a finger. So like for example, if you want to pull more look-alike pilots or deals, you also need to tell like some stor stories, how they happen, but also own mistakes did you make and tell like some turnarounds, like how you face this challenge, you made this mistake, you turned it around

Tihon (05:11)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tihon (05:30)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (05:35)
Moving forward you you progress accordingly, with the customer always being the hero, obviously. So you're a little bit the Mr. Wolf owning all the problems and owning how to it got turned around. So there's something like some nuances to keep in mind, although I'd say these are like principles that apply in general to content. I'd say like just like this the stakes might be a bit higher.

Tihon (05:58)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (06:02)
when it comes to finite small markets or like affinite markets with a a small pool of participants.

Tihon (06:03)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (06:09)
Mm-hmm. I'm also curious like how usually it's important how much it is important to go into details in like finite markets, because usually founders there are, you know, like tech have tech backgrounds like they are deep in one niche for like fifteen, twenty years or something like that. And there is on one hand a temptation to

Tihon (06:36)
go super super like technical into things, but like also well i it's a dangerous path. So h how do you usually approach this? How deep do you go into the details?

Philipp (06:52)
it depends also like on what. So like for example, and this is actually what I just did this morning. target account mapping and also like for example, like having like an idea how did this deal actually happen? How did it arrive? Like who was the decision person? What was like basically also like internally den what were were the internal politics that dragged the deal along, what happened, be it regulation, be it like some an internal discussion that tipped the deal.

Tihon (06:58)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (07:01)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (07:19)
So this is something where I'd say let's go into the full detail, for sure. Because these are the nuances that matter in communication and therefore also like in when it comes to marketing and co and content. when it comes to let's say technical details, I'd say you can go, and this also depends a little bit on your target group. So if you, for example, work with if you sell to technical

Tihon (07:24)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (07:47)
to CTOs or engineers, then yes, super technical, super detailed and make make basically everything open because they want to just like click it and try it out and then work like that and don't stage things. but when it comes for example to content there, I'd say you can go into detail or like I wouldn't say like go into detail but basically use words that your buyers also use to describe certain things. So they see themselves in there.

Tihon (07:50)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (08:15)
Uh-huh,

Tihon (08:16)
uh-huh.

Philipp (08:17)
But specifically also in content, there's a stages like you you get like their attention, you give them like a like a teaser, like what this is about, and if they want to find out more than lead them somewhere else, for example, your your newsletter or like your blog where they can dive really deep. But for example, on social, keep it to a minimum. but some posts can also go deeper. But I wouldn't go into too much detail if it doesn't serve the purpose of the post.

Tihon (08:43)
Mm-hmm. Cool. we've also mentioned about about slightly mentioned that ICP has like different roles inside and we can address content differently, right? it can be economic buyer, it can be champion, it can be like whatever

Tihon (09:10)
methodology we put and how we name the roles inside the account. So I would love to know who do you usually address in the content? Is it towards the champion? who do you recommend to address and how do we get to different roles?

Philipp (09:33)
Hmm. when you start out, and it's also like depends a little bit in general, who are we like who's the the voice, the the the first voice. So like A, I would always recommend start with one person, then establish the rhythm, establish the workflow, then like add maybe like another person, then like another person. And like on average, like the the rule of thumb is also like that every role in a company, for example, the CEO.

Tihon (09:46)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (10:00)
speaks to different persona, a main target reader than like the the CTO, then the marketing manager, then like the chief sales officer as an example. So like I wouldn't say like that the CEO speaks to all five buyers directly and rotates because this is confusing. This is too much. That being said, also I'd start with the person that has like the most interesting things to say to your main main target group. And I would always start with the champion.

Tihon (10:08)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tihon (10:18)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (10:28)
So be it like for example the founder CEO speaks to the champion and and or also like the let's say like the the other like the economic buyer and say like economic buyer and champion, but then I ideally I would address the target the champion, but then also in the content give material for the champion to also say like okay, nice, I'm equipped now, I can also like drive this internally. So like

Tihon (10:29)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (10:55)
be it like this is how you think about this from a business case perspective. This is how you evaluate the technicalities. So these are components or resources that you also plug into the content or like a frame there. But at the same time like the target reader is the champion because this guy then opens the doors and then basically you help him to equip navigate and it's already starts with content. Like this mindset

Tihon (11:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Totally agree here. well, another thing I'm curious about, like company can be like I assume you work with a bit more mature stages than early stage, right? More towards A and B.

Tihon (11:38)
but maybe you've also had some experience working with seed. So talking about the maturity of company, it can be a very different type of games, right? should the content be different as well? do you recommend according to maturing to change the game? And if yes, then how?

Philipp (12:04)
Hmm. I would say like we can differentiate a little bit like seed series A and B or like also like some inflection pointslash revenue things. So like for example, so I'm gonna mention those, but in general, like when we talk about Z stage, meaning like below one million in revenue, no product market fit. So this is basically like the case. this can be bootstrap, but then but also can be like they already have a fundraising.

Tihon (12:14)
Right, right.

Tihon (12:26)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (12:32)
And here in general, I would say the main purpose about showing momentum. So you can also select you can you can work in public to some in stack what are recent fails but also wins, what have you learned from those? Where have you been? What have you learned? a little again, like a little bit building in public. although with like a little nudge for 100% transparency. So like in some case like this work in public with 100% transparency, in my opinion.

Tihon (12:37)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (13:01)
works really well if you yourself are your own best customer. So if you use your own product and basically build it out in public, then it makes a lot of sense also to share. If this is not the case, I would be a bit cautious, especially at this stage. but basically at this stage is really about momentum and showing showing progress. And there's this actually also something where I'd say founders can and should do it themselves.

Tihon (13:12)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (13:31)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (13:31)
For two reasons, because there it's also like are very hard from external to in this stage like to really be really effective when it comes to this, because so many things have to be figured out and the founder also take time to note this down. It also helps them to become better operators in general and also like if hopefully they don't use AI like to find their own voice to have like an idea of how they want to sound like. so this is like what I say, like in seed stage, show momentum and progress and learnings and failures.

Tihon (13:54)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (14:01)
This is like the thing. When we go to Series A, or like a little bit, let's say product market fit achieved. And this is normally also like the one to five million revenue stage. and this is also the inflection point, like one inflection point where I come in. they got here with founder dependent sales. So the founder drove everything, is the is the is the the rainmaker. Maybe there are already like some salespeople there.

Philipp (14:31)
And there we have like a slightly different thing because then it's also getting about like getting all this knowledge, the knowledge out of the founder's head. and also like, okay, like how did this deal happen? What are the real stories behind it? But also deriving a little bit material for sales enablement. you have to understand that sales is like 80% like 20% is what you say, and 80% is how you say it.

Tihon (14:41)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (15:00)
you know how you listen and this can be completely trailed back to clarity and conviction. Clarity in the solution and conviction in the solution. And no be obviously nobody can be as convicted and clear as like a a convinced founder who built like a whole business around it. So this means also new sellers at this stage, they need to be enabled to some extent and like one part is also care if you cannot f have the same clarity and conviction like they do, you need to increase the clarity and conviction of the buyers, how they arrive.

Philipp (15:29)
And this is also like a little bit for me the goal of the content at this stage. and in general, here what I would focus on is also like getting the case study straight, telling the stories about how how they actually happened, what were the turnarounds. and this is like one big thing that changes, which you should cannot talk about before. and at the same time also.

Philipp (15:59)
This is normally at this stage, they this is also the stage where companies should become more data driven and continuously improve themselves. And this is also that and this depends a little bit on the product. But apart from just telling the the stories of customers and like all the war stories that you have that led to these amazing deals, it's also about sharing proprietary data, unique data. In the sense of like, hey, based on our product usage.

Philipp (16:26)
we have like we we see these kind of patterns for customers or like this get got improved when this happens. And these are all or like customer service that you conducted and getting this data and then also using this for content is super super important at this stage to to start doing so. and these are also like the two things that right now on LinkedIn also perform the best: unique stories, personal stories, customer stories.

Philipp (16:52)
And insights backed on your own proprietary data of your product and your customer ins intelligence. And this is a little bit also like make the best deals repeatable, move away from fauna-dependent sales, enable the salespeople. and and the other stage, this like series B slash for me also let's say like 15 to 20 million revenue range.

Philipp (17:19)
Where you have the next inflection point. It's like series B, Series C, where basically now the founder moved, has now senior lead leadership is established. So they have like a chief revenue officer, they have a chief marketing officer, they have like a CTO, and the founder is now operationally hardly involved. And actually, like when they would go up involve themselves again, it would be actually bad for the company because then the others cannot do their job.

Philipp (17:46)
And this is ultimately also the stage where the founder needs to step back. And then it's also like many times, okay, how this is also like a like an inflection point for positioning messaging. but at the same time, also this is now let's tell the founder story, the company story, have like very bold industry takes. but also, for example, in your energy, a very highly regulated market. This is also when the founder voice needs to shape how regulations are being shaped. This like gets like a little bit more political in that sense.

Philipp (18:16)
But in like a market like New Energy that is very heavily dependent on this, this becomes super crucial. but at this stage, when in a new founder role, you have this, and then basically then their role is more like to let's say like the the chief storyteller of the company or whatsoever. that's if this is an official term. But ultimately they now share all the things. So like like their authority, their background supports the whole company.

Tihon (18:35)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (18:43)
without they them it needing to become operational again. So it has a trick to effect if you like you have like proper paths. but also at this stage it's then like a CTO getting active, a CMO getting active makes also sense. So like these are like different roles, but this is like specifically the role for the founder and its content. and there obviously you have way more data to work with.

Philipp (19:10)
But this is like a little bit like the the three stages that I see and also how content changes a little bit with its purpose. how I see it so far.

Tihon (19:23)
Wow, cool. Love it. Nice. yeah. even have nothing to add to this. Cool.

Philipp (19:36)
I have something to add to this. like also the

Philipp (19:38)
fif fifty fifteen to twenty million revenue stage is also like for the founders. Like they exactly what I did. But also this is a little bit the point when they move when they move into this, like they they do something that supports their main company, but at the same time there's also the stage of many where like, okay, what's next? also like shall I invest in something, shall I start a new company? And like also with then like this content motion also attracts these new opportunities for them.

Tihon (19:58)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (20:05)
to then like also act on this. So like they have their main thing, they're not operationally that involved, but support them while also preparing for the next one, whatever this might be.

Tihon (20:08)
Right, right, right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tihon (20:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Also to get more investments, to get this personal brand moving wheels for them, to get cool hires when they early stage and you know, like how you're gonna get the best talent, right? Nice. mm-hmm

Philipp (20:32)
Tolkien.

Tihon (20:34)
I would love also to go a little bit more like helicopter view and to try to like get under the founder's skin. in the moment they're choosing a solution for content because like these days there are actually many solutions. You can go with AI. Nobody loves AI in the field, but yeah, you can build a slightly more sophisticated system, put

Tihon (21:01)
call recordings in AI and build something more or less fine with good tone of voice instructions possible but like still far from ideal. Then you can go with with a ghost writer, you can go with an agency, you can go with the coach, you can

Tihon (21:20)
Just skip content entirely. You can hire like a journalist, internal marketer, so many, many categories of choices. but I think what all like or many founders are coming together in a place like content is more or less needed these days, more or less required. So how would you first of all

Tihon (21:50)
Do you usually sell this idea to a founder like guys you need content or is it or are they usually pre-sod on this? And second question, how how to help them navigate through all these options? How should they choose?

Philipp (22:09)
I mean, ideal scenario is the founder was like, hey, I know this is important. I have no idea how to do it. I need support. Can you help me? That's the best. but many, many times it's also like the case that, for example, like the marketing person says, like, hey, we need to do this, and then convince like a founder to do so, that is like a little bit hesitant. So like it it it depends a little bit. but in general,

Tihon (22:20)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (22:38)
selling like to to business person, like to a founder, it's like, yeah, we should do content. that's like a hard sell. But like guy get understanding like what keeps them up at night, where's like their their main stress going to, what they lose sleep over, getting an idea on this one and then trying to and then putting the content motion and mapping it to some extent for towards this.

Philipp (23:04)
is an easier sell. For example, like I'm wasting so much fucking time on, you know, like jumping into sales calls because they still don't get it. I'm like, okay. You know, that's a good setup. You like, you know why that is, and then I you give them the clarity story. And then also like in content ultimately gives you more like gives on your unit time input more leverage and also solves this. So you don't have to jump in. It takes some time. But it's like one way to to tackle this. but like in in

Philipp (23:33)
Overall, you can always trace back to the main motivations is like more revenue or like better closing rates, they gaining back more time and/or also attracting capital and talent. This depends a little bit on which stage they are. that's like for one, when it comes to navigating all the options. So, like one thing that I want to make clear upfront.

Philipp (24:03)
with like this AI content. So like there's shitty AI content and there's good AI content. But right now we're like in this one phase where like and I got I got even accused of like using AI like in my own writing or like in outreach messages. And I was like, no, this was just me. This is just like without like saying I'm the best, but like I was this was just proper writing. Just because it's clean doesn't mean it's like AI. I'm not taking it personally anymore because like in general right now it's a little bit you know

Tihon (24:28)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (24:33)
and this is like super and I wrote like read a post about this today. Like you know, now an AI was trained on good content on social. So like what you see right now is not necessarily bad writing per se. But in general, now it's a little bit we have like this trust issue where people say, Okay, i it's probably AIs, so it's not this person, so I don't trust him. So what are like things that when like okay, there's like a like an error or like

Tihon (24:43)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (24:58)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (25:02)
Like for example, telling unique stories and unique data points are like two that's that's why they're so important because these are like things that AI cannot really come up with. This is this cut needs to come from a person. That's like one thing. But at the same time, you know like in this post, also was a writer and she was like, you know, she was helping her her son with or like her little brother with like a writing exam. And like also like he's a good writer. And then she was about to correct some parts of his grammar.

Philipp (25:32)
And he was like, No, no, no. I I put them in there like on purpose because like if I don't have any grammar issues, the AI scan of my teacher tells me I used AI. So now also like we we reach we reach a point where where we actually a the perception of people when it comes to AI forces writers to be be shittier writers, so people think it's from them. And I think this is doesn't really progress humanity.

Tihon (25:43)
Uh-huh, yeah.

Philipp (25:59)
So now like this is like the this friction, this moment, you know what I mean? Like this is like this friction this friction point. and also some like sometimes it's shitty AI stuff, 100%, but sometimes I'm like, Jesus Christ, it's good writing. so that that's like maybe like upfront. when it I want to this is like a passion, like a this topic triggers me a little bit. and I also use yeah.

Tihon (26:03)
Of course.

Tihon (26:17)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (26:24)
By the way, I by the

Tihon (26:27)
way, I personally know couple people who intentionally do mistakes in their outreach when they write to somebody otherwise it is percepted as AI in many many cases. So they do, you know, a couple grammar mistakes just like to sound more natural, more human. And yeah, here we are.

Philipp (26:49)
And more like, you know, like these let's think about like quick and dirty WhatsApp messages that you send quickly. So this is like I'm also experimenting with this, but also like I spoke also like with another founder who also still does outreach, you know, very step like serial founder. He's also like, yeah, these these convert the best, like these dirty messages, especially if if it's the first one. but in general, yeah, like this is a weird time. when it comes to

Tihon (26:55)
Yeah.

Philipp (27:19)
Doing it themselves, hiring a ghostwriterslash co-writer, getting a coach, using AI, having an internal content person. it obviously depends on the person. because there are some people that are just like they they love to write themselves, and I think they should. And some some even need coaches, others don't. They just need like, you know, to get like a little of time. Many times, if you're like a busy executive or founder, you just don't have so much time.

Philipp (27:48)
And good writing takes time. So this also means like okay, how can you basically get better at writing but also get more like don't have to invest five to ten hours for like three strong pieces a week, but just one and two hours. This is a little bit the question with without losing that.

Philipp (28:08)
I'd say like in general, full ghostwriting hardly works. So like you need to follow this co-writing process. Like, for example, like the typical process of okay, one person, the ghostwriter, content positioning strategist, arrives with three specific topics, is prepared, and talks with the founder and like nails these things down and like doubles like qu asks how did this happen? Like, why was this the case, etc.? So have to have like a little like a prepared extraction interview session.

Philipp (28:38)
while also asking them what what else happened because many times they're just like so busy that nobody this is like a moment where they pause and also reflect and talk about it. So like having like one person who knows how to drive drill deeper and what to listen to is super, super crucial. Then you they write a draft and then the founder does like a quick review. So this is like something like which I believe works good. and I believe it's also like the one like the

Philipp (29:07)
And it's it's there's a reason why basically every good ghostwriter, every good ghostwriting agency does it like that. So like there's no big there's no big difference. There's more like a difference on like how what framework they use, how you interview, how you write. This is like the the difference. but this this definitely works. When it comes to also like

Tihon (29:16)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (29:33)
Prepping this two stages like pre-product market fit. We sort of talked about this before. I would say like do it yourself. When it comes to product market fit, being close to product market fit, depending on the person, obviously. But in general, I'd say if you run a business, then you shouldn't put all your time in there. So start with a ghostwriter to get more leverage on your unit time input. that does like interview you, then basically creates a draft.

Philipp (30:02)
you add your nudges and then basically go so and like after the first month this should be actually like established written that you that it's like one to two hours a week with a 30 minute weekly review max. when once it's established you can continue and if and and just do it like this or if you like a founder that wants to get good at writing themselves, you can get a coach. So like famous examples are for example, Adam Robinson or a Gal Aga for example.

Philipp (30:32)
They both started like I'm not sure about Galaga, but Adam like he also spokes about this like publicly. Started with a ghostwriter from zero, who got him from zero to ten to ten thousand followers. this was Tommy Clark, I I believe. And then a compound studio. And then basically he switched and got Alec Paul as a coach. And this is a little bit I'm not sure if he if he calls himself like that, but you know Rick Rubin. Do you know Rick Rubin, the producer?

Tihon (30:58)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (31:00)
Yeah.

Philipp (31:00)
And he's

Philipp (31:00)
like a producer, and he basically just sits down with the musicians and like tries to get out the goal of them. And then I don't know his process, but like this is somehow also like high how I think about it. That they then sit together with Alec Paul and like, hey, these are the pieces, and they they mutually go through. He coaches them and like challenges them to think better, as one part of his service. So, like, this also like something you could do. and or at this stage, once it's established.

Tihon (31:20)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (31:29)
and I'm also helping there. once you have like a proper content library, you know what works, then it also makes sense to build, get like an internal person doing this with a caveat to it. Because either it's like super established process, then yes. But and like also one thing here I spoke with many founders like, yeah, social media, like yeah, like we had like a working student doing this for us.

Philipp (31:58)
And I'm like, this is executive, this is executive communication. So you're outsourcing and there are brilliant young people out there, but in general, at this stage, like this is also like the wrong prioritization. so you need definitely like a good person for this one. And even like an entropic open AI. It's funny, the most companies try to replace, for example, content writing or whatsoever with AI, with these kind of jobs, and the company's developing the AI are actively hiring for people that the other company is trying to replace with AI.

Tihon (31:58)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (32:28)
So this also tells you something. but in general, you can then build up an internal person. I wouldn't say two juniors, like good writer. but at the same time, also here we face like some internal hierarchies. So how do you manage like like an executive who if he doesn't like you can fire you tomorrow? I don't think that it was what would happen, but you like there's some hierarchy issues there. or the CMO does it themselves.

Tihon (32:42)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (32:54)
And this is basically you can move them in here, but I'd say this should be something after you have an established process with a proper agency slash ghostwriter. It works and also maintaining and then also building other things on top. That you need to find the right person and take into account how what kind of hierarchy you have in in the because there's always one, and how to navigate this. So in general, these are all the things.

Philipp (33:22)
I would never and I did the same mistake myself, I would not start writing with AI. Because ultimately you want to to do you want to have a better feeling about like who you are and how you write. And if you use AI, this is impossible. Because then at one point and I had this discussion with another customer, it's like, you know, then you get like, I like the straff Philip, but like I w it needs to be so sound more like me. And then like I get an AI output. And I'm like, guys, this is n this is not you. You might have forgotten.

Tihon (33:28)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (33:52)
but like in general, this is like how I think about this. And for these kind of thing, and this is like a very specialized skill, and for this it makes sense to get external help, be it from ghostwriting, like stuff pre-programmat start start yourself if you want to, then get like an external agency slash ghostwriter, then potentially move into coaching. If you want to continue or start building with like the person that hired you to

Philipp (34:20)
build an internal resource, but then also to keep in mind like what kind of content motion do you want to run and who is doing the the executive interviews, keeping the hierarchies in mind here.

Tihon (34:33)
Cool, love this. I'm curious, have have you already have you ever been running in an issue when founder wants to like to save time as much as possible and they say like I have no time for interview for a call?

Tihon (34:58)
But instead, let's hire, let's say, a subject matter expert, somebody at SME, somebody who understands this topic pretty well, like our field, let's say like energy tech. could you work with them? I'm like I'll just like make a couple of scenes here and there, and we'll create content for the company. we'll create both content for my page, for like all

Tihon (35:26)
you know, like we will tick all the content boxes with this kind of scheme. Have you ever been in this situation and do you work with this situation?

Philipp (35:39)
Me personally, I haven't encountered like I haven't had such a conversation yet. but I know like I I know people who do. in general and like also you know, sometimes like when we we choose like in my in my engagements, we choose like one person, like it depends on the engagement, like sometimes you choose like this is the guy we use, and for some topics you need to talk to somebody else inside the company who just knows better. But then like it's still like you you launch it via this one person's account.

Tihon (35:41)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (35:44)
Mm.

Tihon (36:01)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (36:04)
Right. Uh-huh.

Philipp (36:08)
So this is something let's call it internal subject matter experts. when it comes to let's say external subject matter experts, there you also need to differentiate between two types because there's like one guys who have been like had a career and now are the the experts and basically get paid for opening doors and whatsoever. I'm not talking about these. We're talking about like proper in-depth subject matter experts, and when it comes to

Tihon (36:09)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (36:12)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (36:32)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (36:35)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (36:38)
using them, how I would do it is actually rather okay guys, let's interview the top 10 subject matter experts in our industry on their take. And then we basically have like then like these 10 subject matter experts and create a white paper or like have this and then also do a survey with our own company data and and customer data and then like launch this kick us.

Philipp (37:05)
Sir this like then the the flagship lead magnet for the year, if you can say. And then that that's how I would use them here, the subject matter experts. And then like the founder can launch it. But I wouldn't say, let's talk to a subject matter expert and then like his insights we push via the founder. I wouldn't do this. But I would use subject matter experts for like some content pieces, like the one that I just described. yeah, that's that's the how I how I

Tihon (37:10)
Yeah.

Tihon (37:23)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (37:30)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (37:32)
Cool. I actually know some companies who do exactly the same workflow as you discussed. For example, like in fashion industry, they do exactly similar workflow, having a couple of journalists, couple of top like experts in the field working together on lead magnet slash playbook for like three, four months.

Tihon (38:00)
get a proper document bulletproof and then launch it ideally on an event where everyone is hanging out, nicely have like presentation, not not a dry one, and and then from from there just spread it to all the ICPs, all their target roles, like this way it usually works.

Philipp (38:27)
Yeah. that makes sense. But also here, this is something I'd say later stage, so wouldn't do this too soon. And I'm also like a firm believer in you know, probably lean startup. Let's call it like the the lean writing. I think actually Nicholas Cole popularized or like owned the term lean writing. But in general, like you know, lead magnet, like in some of my engagements, like I have like, you know, this amount of posts as part of the delivery mechanism and like one lead magnet.

Tihon (38:41)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tihon (38:45)
Right.

Philipp (38:56)
month, but they're also like it's a valuable resource, but here's like signal, how did this resonate? And then after you've done this a while, then you can say like, okay, now we know what's going on. So let's invest deeper into like a our flagship lead magnet. this could be something. And we're also then doing like this survey that that you also just brought from the the fashion industry which I described before.

Tihon (39:02)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (39:10)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (39:19)
Mm-hmm. Right, right. And also like super crucial in my opinion, how do we spread the lead magnet if the founder is doing this like

Tihon (39:32)
comment lint magnet and get a copy of this type of or you know like having these loan forms and get bombarded from sales after as soon as they write all their details is kind of not usually how the buyers want to buy these days.

Tihon (39:52)
And yeah, I think it definitely should be aligned and and sent probably with full, you know, like reciprocity without asking much back. and yeah, I personally prefer this approach.

Philipp (40:14)
Yeah. I mean it has been overused. It has been like a growth hack to like comment X for a like comment and I send it to you. And then like many c cases you don't get it sent. but I know many people where this works amazingly, but also only because they have continuous c continuously launched stuff that is really, really valuable. That's the only reason.

Philipp (40:39)
when it comes like to launching like this, how you do you distribute, like let's say like your flagship lead magnet. I would also say you you can in most cases email block it. So it's plugged in into your website, main banner there, it's plugged into your also like your LinkedIn profile as an example with like a call to action for what people should do. But also when you, for example, launch it, Jesus Christ. I'm getting still

Philipp (41:05)
When like the the then the company accounts is like, hey, we have this white paper, and then the founder reposts. I'm like, Really? Really? like at least add like two comments or you know what? Post it yourself and like add like some like your your your strong thoughts on this. And not just like I'm so happy and so grateful for the company put so much work into this, I highly recommend it, but like a little bit more, a little bit more, because like this is also not how you convince this is not how you convince your customers.

Tihon (41:12)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (41:32)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (41:36)
True. True. Right, right, right, right. Philip, also like I would I was very curious going through your LinkedIn and today on the conversation, you've mentioned a deal intelligence, something called as deal intelligence, when you go together with founders studying best cases, best deals, what worked there, what not, then probably

Philipp (41:37)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (42:04)
those deals which failed and trying to find the patterns there and so on so forth to get this to get this intelligence later for content and to help founders stop being a bottleneck in the business to hand the process to the team and so on so forth. So and when I read it from you I I thought like wow it it's

Tihon (42:32)
It it doesn't seem like only a ghostwriter's job, right? It's more like proper consultancy. So I was curious how do you usually approach this and the process itself if you can get like detailed.

Philipp (42:50)
Yeah. so maybe also like one thing is also like a little stage of like let's say like just ghostwriting and then like also like more the then you can add that there's other packages where you can add some more strategic depth. so this is also like there. When it comes to deal intelligence, in general, it's always messy. It's always like it's not like you open up and then you see like this perfect CRM where everything is well documented and you just like this is it guys. Thanks. This is not how it works.

Tihon (43:03)
Samson.

Tihon (43:08)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tihon (43:13)
Magic box. wow. huh. huh.

Tihon (43:20)
huh.

Philipp (43:20)
this is a very long, rough process. so but like how and it's like you can like the the way I describe it is quite streamlined, but it's hardly the reality, to be honest. so how to extract if they have transcripts, go through the transcripts. If they don't have transcripts, tell them get start the recording your sales course. That's like for one, also for ongoing.

Tihon (43:24)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (43:36)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (43:48)
Then ongoing interviews with the founders for specific parts of the buyer journey. Like then also like for example, today what what did we do today? give me all your lists. Let's let's say like what what who or like what were the f best five to ten biggest best deals that you have? And then wh how and why did these buyers come to your company? Then also like, okay, what ex exact decision forced them to act to the deal from later till now? Like then we'd start talking about these like things.

Philipp (44:17)
What was the internal fear they eliminated? Where did they first encounter the company? What one risk tips the deal these deals, like going through into each account, and then basic I received a list of like I don't know, 80 companies, and that's their CRM. So like that that's also like sometimes that you have to work with, and then like s suddenly like add these nuances and details to it. And then like this is like one part, like let's call like internal.

Philipp (44:43)
intelligence and like put everything out of the founder. And this is an ongoing process. It's not like a one time session, but like also like sometimes you have another extraction session and then you keep documenting. another part is also talk with their customers.

Tihon (44:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tihon (44:58)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (44:59)
So which are already like normally like do in the beginning. and then basically also like, hey, talk with the customers about it, like how did this move internally? What were the internal things that you that you had to navigate? And like in an infinite markets you sell to very big companies. So there's also like many times like let's do something and contract signed and there's there's like a big, big time in between because of that, and getting a a better idea about like how things happen internally, that's also part of this, like internal.

Philipp (45:29)
talking with the customers, using transcripts as much as you can. And then once you have done like a like this these are the top deals and also like some deals that didn't happen and like also like why it was and then slowly you get like a clear picture about what were the triggers and once you have this you can then you then also you know test. You say like okay this is like how how we think it push it out in the market for several times and then normally something comes back.

Tihon (45:59)
Cool. I'm wondering, do usually founders consider this work in your experience as like super valuable when you go into deal intelligence and extract some info out of this? Or they said, like pretty a lot of work here.

Philipp (46:25)
depends on a person. And it just depends on the person and also a little bit what is the engagement about and how you frame it. as an example, if if you have like inflection point, found move away from fauna dependent sales, they also like they say like so much work. But also when you say like guys, you want to do have fundraising end of the year, you to trying to hire like you see you're hiring three salespeople end of the year. How

Tihon (46:28)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (46:34)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (46:44)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (46:55)
How how no one gives you money when they when you send them like a list of 80 80 companies and you cannot tell them anything about it. And this is like normally like, yeah, okay, fair enough. So then also like getting down, but at the same time, well. And then also

Tihon (47:07)
Good point.

Philipp (47:12)
What I said, for example, today is also like this also improves pattern recognition for yourself. Because it's also like some like some ways like to say like let's do like this this little exercise. but this also depends like what kind of person it is. and for example, I would say like this is very, very valuable at like this first inflection point when we talk about the like inflection point two, like

Tihon (47:19)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (47:39)
More like the 20 million revenue is stage, there normally also somebody is already cleaned up. So like there's already like a sales leader in there. So like that you have more data to work with from the begin with. So you talk less with the founder about these things, maybe like some nuance, like for some deals where they still were involved, like what were like their takes on this one. So that's like a little bit different, and there I wouldn't do such an exercise.

Tihon (48:06)
Cool. Nice. Yeah, I see that we are almost reaching the finishing point, but I actually have two more questions, if you don't mind. So first one is about building content market fit. So how do you usually read the signals from market? Because usually like our potential buyers

Tihon (48:36)
They are silent, so sometimes they can look the into content, don't engage in any case, because they know that probably they would be approached by sales if they hit like or comment, stuff like this. So they usually like classic behaviors, they are lurkers. But how do you know that content is working? How do you know that content market fit is there or we are on the right path?

Philipp (49:03)
Also, a little bit, you know, like product market fit. and I believe Adam Robinson made this metaphor and I loved it. It's like basically when you once you have product market fit or content market fit for for for the matter, it's a little bit like you you like it, it feels like you're wearing a suit of meat in a park full of hungry dogs. This is a little bit like you know.

Tihon (49:08)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (49:13)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (49:32)
Yeah,

Tihon (49:32)
it lands. I didn't see this pose, but it lands.

Philipp (49:37)
So this is like a little bit like the feeling that you get. when it comes like to signals and that like what are signals to watch out for? Like obviously it depends like what the the post was about, what like you wanted to achieve. because like personal stories will have more engagement and others that are like very good for positioning and very specific have less so, but like on design.

Philipp (50:02)
So you need to differ the differentiate and also educate the customer on this one. Just because this has a lot of likes and gave you dopamine shots like crazy, doesn't mean only th these kind of things. That's like for one thing. the sick so you should watch out for social data, engagement data, like also like how many saved something, etc. But in general, the main KPIs, specifically when it comes to buyers, because you said like most buyers are locals and do not engage.

Tihon (50:09)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (50:31)
Profile visitors. So like basic, like some also anonymize now, so you don't see who who checked your profile. I don't think that's a good thing. I had it one at a the other time. I'm like, no, like they can see what I do because otherwise, like maybe something can happen. so like profile visitors, like one core KPI, connection requests, DMs. So these are the data core KPIs that like that you will see from buyers. another one is also.

Philipp (51:01)
You have a con you have a sales call or like a conversation with existing customers and they like and they start re referencing your c your content. Like, hey, I really love what you talked about. This is also like something. maybe also like on the engagement data. Like, for example, like many buyers are not engaging, but like in LinkedIn you can dive deep who saw you like which type of personas in which industries saw you saw your proposed.

Tihon (51:10)
Mm-hmm. Right, right.

Philipp (51:28)
And this already like they didn't engage, but like you see who they are, and this also gives you like a hint, a signal, like this this is this post was designed for that, and also like it resonated, even though they didn't engage. so these are like the the the things how we do it or how how we check on this. and besides that, I think this is these are the main main things to to keep in mind and what to look out for.

Tihon (51:40)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (51:59)
Cool, thanks. And probably the last question to help a lonely founder who is looking for advice. I'm kidding. So just like to imagine how we can, yes?

Philipp (52:19)
And so like a

Philipp (52:20)
lonely founder looking for advice, I'd say like the the most.

Tihon (52:26)
Right,

Tihon (52:27)
but but the the most of advice is is around like classic B2B SARS. I see like so so little like around long sales cycles, so little about finite market conditions, right?

Philipp (52:42)
Mm.

Tihon (52:42)
So advice, like so much advice, but these narrow tiny four niches like energy tech or like the others like sustainability fashion, like very, very tiny.

Tihon (52:57)
Yeah, so I I'm curious for these type of founders under these conditions, what would you build or recommend them to build as a practical system? So let's say there is an imaginative founder like Series B with with a market of like let's say 200 buyers total.

Tihon (53:22)
So very, very small niche market and they want to run the content. So how would you recommend them to approach this and how would the first 90 days actually look for them?

Philipp (53:35)
Okay. Like good that you also clarified a little bit because like for example like seed and series A would be different than like like a series B too to be fair.

Tihon (53:42)
Right. Right.

Philipp (53:49)
It it depend like given that for example inflection point foundry like let's let's let's let's draw a picture. Okay. Technical founder, PhD background, 20 million in revenue, they are like established in the market, senior leadership is established, and one of the new senior leaders is also a proper marketing leader. And then baseb and like this marketing leader has two mandates, like let's positioning messaging, let's let's clean this one up.

Tihon (53:57)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (54:11)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (54:20)
You know, this is like one thing. Like for example, you're I don't know, like in in your energy space and like PhD founders like eighty percent was like academic. This is like the the problem and like explaining everything and then 20% insight. And then basically about flipping the script. This is like basically demanded and having like core narratives. And this is like one, like the picture. And let's just say I don't do this, like this is set. Okay, like it is a set, this is validated.

Tihon (54:39)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Philipp (54:49)
Then in general, I'd still and the founder hasn't been really active, but has a good network because they've been doing this for at least five years. so that would be like month one would be about positioning in the market and activating the existing network. And with this, you can basically run different frameworks, if you will, like also a little bit the origin story, the biggest customer, how how did this actually like happen?

Philipp (55:17)
share the proprietary framework, how you approach projects, how you approach customer deployments, and then also like why you do so, news checking or the recent news, with like a strong bold industry POV. and then these are basically like the main things. Like you can say like personal story, actual advice within the proprietary framework, and then also sharing customer success stories, and you can do like

Tihon (55:38)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Philipp (55:47)
I would actually start with three times, like with three posts a week. and then basically rotate and they're like some sub frameworks. goal here is to position the market and activate the network, and clean up the profile and have like proper capture mechanisms in place that once people go there, they know what to do next. Very important. then month two and three, or like days thirty one till ninety, in general would say like it's still testing and refining.

Tihon (55:50)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tihon (56:07)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (56:16)
So like then also after we have positioned in the market and like the narratives are like out there, then it's also I would actually like continue running the same playbook so like you basically have like strong industry POV, actionable advice and personal story and like your content pillars, and then basically you just rotate. Like and then like when you have like this, you integrate those and then like add like more and more stuff that the try test of different frameworks, the different formats and frameworks if you will. and

Tihon (56:35)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (56:45)
then see what resonates. This is actually also like the time where you can also write some direct response posts that are like more specific, describing the world of the come of your target accounts, and also like what were the risks, how did you remove how would you remove those? Like basically reflecting to those people, I get you. I've been here, I get you. And this is actually like how how how your world changed and we have like the stats to to to to prove that.

Tihon (57:06)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Philipp (57:13)
This is like when you can also loop these in after you've like more again try response posts. but then also at this point target c account commenting also becomes important. So that you also like you post like some things, you react on the comments, but also we have to find the like for example, let's say like let's say 100 target, like you maybe 200, but let's say the top 100 target accounts. There also

Tihon (57:16)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (57:41)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (57:42)
I'd start simple. The first 15 target the first 15 like the top 15 you put in sales navigator, you create a target account list for them, they log in and get a notification of those 15 people, if something in the company, or also like from the the main decision maker in the company posts something, you get a notification and then you just leave a genuine comment every day. And the goal is to have like to start with five to ten comments.

Philipp (58:12)
You know, simple. which then increases the volume increases here. And if then it's for example, like of those fifteen people, like nobody posted that day, then you rotate the remaining list. And then you just like work your way through and leave a genuine comments. Like there's also like one activity that comes in here. And this is actually something where I'd say this is a founder's job.

Philipp (58:36)
Because ultimately you're opening the doors. Like everybody is is annoyed by AI comments. So it should be a human. And if it's a human, then it should also be the person who's ultimately trying to build a relationship and the founder's building a relationship, not like this hired ghostwriter, full stack, whatever agency kind of thing. in my opinion. But there are other ways where it also works. this is then also the time, like during these two, three months.

Tihon (58:36)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (58:57)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (59:05)
when you test around and you see clearly who's who's a winner. And then after those ninety days you have like clear data, who visited your profile, what resonated, what account started engaging with not just your profile, but maybe even like your account. you see really what content pillars resonate well, what formats felt good. and then this is also the time where you can then as a next step add for leadership ads. So this is also like

Tihon (59:34)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (59:34)
LinkedIn is going more and more into this direction, which I understand to some extent, but then also see the winners and then like put thought leadership ads on those. what converts a lot is also those those case studies, like those case studies, including like a story, and like for these, you add like a call to action and then turn them into thought leadership ads. This would be the the next step. There are more sophisticated workflows like you know, reflect clay and fiber, and these totally make sense.

Tihon (59:49)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (01:00:04)
But it's in something that comes after the ninety days. In my like I believe so.

Tihon (01:00:10)
Cool. I have just one small clarification. you've mentioned before interviews with clients. do you usually run them early on during these 90 days? And like some clients do not like really want to

Tihon (01:00:38)
like introduced somebody to their customers right because there is a risk a danger and at the same time it is a possible upside to make the relations stronger if a meaningful conversation will happen and they will feel heard and and share their insights and so on so forth so yeah when do you do it and how do you do it

Tihon (01:01:06)
If you can share briefly.

Philipp (01:01:09)
the interviews with the with the customers of my customer.

Tihon (01:01:11)
with we

Tihon (01:01:12)
yeah, we with customers of the customers.

Philipp (01:01:14)
Mm-hmm. this depends a little bit also on the mandate. I like it a little bit if it's just we do ghostwriting for leadership, then not. Yeah, but like when we're like, okay, let's let's create some deal intelligence and refine positioning messaging in that way. And like normally I'd say like this is like a six to eight week sprint, like the positioning messaging if you will, like on overall also like if you're followed the April Dunford method, as soon as possible.

Tihon (01:01:18)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (01:01:22)
Sure, on on on the package that you are collaborating. Uh-huh.

Tihon (01:01:29)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (01:01:38)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Philipp (01:01:44)
as soon as possible. And this is also like this is always because like you start posting while also doing like the custom interviews.

Tihon (01:01:45)
Right, right.

Philipp (01:01:54)
Right from the beginning because it's the b biggest bottleneck. This is the biggest, like the day take the longest time to get like somebody in there. It takes the longest time, but it's like su the most insightful, and crucial. so therefore, ASAP. Like ideally week and we like become borderline annoying and like say like like in the first two weeks in the first week after the first week I want to have like the next the first interview scheduled.

Tihon (01:01:57)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Tihon (01:02:06)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (01:02:22)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (01:02:23)
And and this normally also works if I mean if there's a risk. So like A, if the company does not have customers that are open to have an interview for that help you out to tell your story, to refine your positioning messaging, if you don't have customers that are willing to do so, then you have a very different problem, then you shouldn't worry about cot.

Tihon (01:02:46)
Yeah.

Philipp (01:02:47)
Then you should worry

Tihon (01:02:48)
Right.

Philipp (01:02:48)
about like improving your customer relations first. That's before you talk start talking about how great you are. that's for one. but in general, it is fine. It's just like you know, somebody might feel a bit inconvenient. but also that's what an NDA is for. You know, by the way, NDA is so nothing can share can be shared or will be shared. This is probably maybe even a more of a German.

Philipp (01:03:14)
automotive kind of thing, but part of the deal. And at the same time also, if somebody feels like I don't want to send you like alone, then they can just join the call and keep their mouth mouths shut. I don't think this is the most effective way of using the time, but also like if they do it in the first two, three interviews that they hear it and like, okay, do the others without me. Fine. Just give me the the recordings.

Tihon (01:03:32)
Right.

Tihon (01:03:40)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (01:03:45)
Nice, nice. Got it. Wow. well, thanks a lot. And as a let's say as a bonus question for information for our listeners, maybe you have some you've mentioned some cool people already, maybe you have some sources that you read yourself that you can recommend to the listeners, whatever it is, podcast, LinkedIn, a book, a movie, whatever, would love to hear.

Philipp (01:04:20)
God. this will be not like a complete list. So but like who are the people that I recently enjoy reading from? And it's not not necessarily always about content itself, but like also staying up to date. I I do like the style of Tommy Clark actually from Compound Studio, and I think like he has like nice takes and he has also good case studies. and Alec Paul has the craziest testimonial like case studies ever.

Tihon (01:04:27)
Sure.

Tihon (01:04:40)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (01:04:46)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (01:04:50)
But he doesn't share so much. Like he he's I I believe he's running the expert game now. He has this status, like hard to reach. He doesn't share a lot, but he has already that status and like has this position to do so. So he doesn't but when he, for example, like does something, like talks about something, I I I I I zoom in. I like Fantomaya.

Tihon (01:04:50)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Tihon (01:05:03)
And he's funny. Which forgives anything.

Tihon (01:05:14)
Uh-huh.

Philipp (01:05:18)
also like he's also German, he's also like one of the OGs when it comes to LinkedIn. he n runs up n he also runs a podcast and he just like talks like with people that are like the top of the game and his like if I was a CMO trying to like this this I think like this was his thing. and they are always like really really good. And this is always like very, very nice to see. In general I like the Mike Rosenthal I think is the name like with his takes on AI and writing. he also

Philipp (01:05:47)
came out of nowhere, but like I I love to to listen to to these. I like the style of Justina as well. and Melissa, I think also Melissa Hosenthal. I don't know. The state of brand author. I like also like how she runs things. when it comes to and a bunch of others. But in general also like I think like Nicholas Cole also has like

Tihon (01:06:00)
Mm-hmm.

Philipp (01:06:16)
Probably the most successful ghostwriter. Also went through PGA a while back. And to be honest, also like now, most people where I'm like, they're killing it with their agents, you're killing it as ghostwriters, that they can be traced back to him. and like his frameworks are super good, and like his teachings and his way of doing things. positioning April Dunford is like a very great resource. and

Tihon (01:06:28)
Right.

Tihon (01:06:39)
Mm-hmm. The Queen.

Philipp (01:06:44)
Besides that, sometimes I dive into like a sub stack rabbit hole. I'm actually starting my own or like the first issue this Sunday. but these are like just like people where I'm at. But then it's to be honest.

Philipp (01:07:00)
Like and I'm little bit jealous. So, like what you're doing is like also like Finn does it itself. Invite people to a podcast that might know something and just interview them and release it. And like you download a lot of knowledge from different people, have like your marketing play as well, where both parties win. so this is actually I I'm not doing it, but like listening to these kind of people or like me just like hopping on a call with other peers and exchanging things is also like how I stay up to date.

Philipp (01:07:28)
And these are like people that probably nobody really knows, but this is I think like in

Tihon (01:07:29)
Absolutely.

Tihon (01:07:33)
Absolutely. And many of them deserve to become niche famous which which you are doing for them, which is amazing.

Philipp (01:07:44)
I think Daniel Bustamante was the first hire of PGA of Nicholas Cole, he was running their own marketing and Laura La Costa Costa, Laura Lacosta also interviewed him. and she was also like, You're such a hidden gem. And this guy is a hidden jam. Like, like what he's pulling off is really, really impressive. so yeah, niche famous. That that's that's the word I guess.

Tihon (01:07:49)
Mm-hmm.

Tihon (01:07:54)
Mm-hmm. yeah, no, I know. Mm-hmm.

Tihon (01:08:04)
Uh-huh.

Tihon (01:08:10)
Right. Philip, thank you so much. It was a blast. Thanks a lot for your time. yeah, hope to talk again soon.

Philipp (01:08:21)
Thanks for having me, Tion. It was fun.

Tihon (01:08:24)
Thank you. All right, so